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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Webster G. Tarpley

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus-- Keep AdamBiswanger1 03:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Webster G. Tarpley

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Another non notable conspiracy theorist. Not a single reliable source present. Fails WP:BIO and WP:V. -- Peephole 00:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment that's a slight bump for Synthetic Terror, and admittedly we're not trying to resurrect the Synthetic Terror article. I don't feel that deletion was undeserved though. He might meet notability requirements for the Bush Sr. bio, but it's bad enough that I've already spotted Wikipedia articles citing it as if it were a reliable source. If I were to assume for a moment that the Bush book is notable, the article is still grossly undersourced and needs assertations of his notability that don't come from conspiracy theorists. As Morton said, we're not here to pander to a Walled Garden.--Rosicrucian 15:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Passes all points mentioned nomination:
    • WP:BIO: Passes per The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field. and Published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work. Like him or not, thinking he's crazy or not, he has made a name for himself in the field regarding government conspiracy history. "Who Killed Aldo Moro" established an international audience (in 1978), published in both Italian and English (at least).
    • WP:RS: New Yorker already covered above. He's on nationwide radio shows often, and international ones as well. He's been on CNN, during the whole Charlie Sheen conspiracy issue [1]. He was a panel member for Axis for Peace, a gathering that got international mainstream media coverage (though not much in USA, but this is not us.wikipedia.org). This last point also goes toward proving WP:BIO.
  • Comment There are a couple of problems with Sparkhead’s assertions, a) Tarpley and his 911 conspiracy theory got about a page of copy in the New York Magazine, NOT the New Yorker as Sparkhead asserts, BIG DIFFERENCE (one is national, the other a local weekly). b) “nationwide radio shows often” Being on Alex Jones’s radio show does not pass WP:BIO. Brimba 08:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:V: What would you like to verify? That he's written books? That he has a radio show? What is the failure here?
Now, while the article itself may not detail these references well enough, that simply means it is in need of cleanup, not deletion. *Sparkhead 16:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment For WP:BIO, Sparkhead asserts one of his works as notable, but the passage he quotes regards "multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work." which we simply haven't seen. For WP:RS we have been given one reliable source to assert his noteworthiness and one reliable source does not an article make. As far as WP:V the article makes unsourced claims about "Who Killed Aldo Moro?" that need to be backed up with cites. Now, perhaps this is all cleanup work. But it is cleanup work that nobody has undertaken in over a year, and if the article can be brought up to snuff the onus is upon those that want to save the article.--Rosicrucian 03:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is also cleanup work that nobody requested in over a year. The talk page is, for all purposes, blank. Put in {{fact}}, {{cleanup}}, {{unencyclopedic}}, whatever. Assume that the article was created in good faith, act in good faith by putting up requests/warnings for improvements before rushing to delete. This stampede to AfD is ridiculous, and not in the spirit of Wikipedia. *Sparkhead 11:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's being requested now. If you believe it's this easy to address the deletion reasons, nothing is stopping you from doing so while the AfD is in process, and if that can be demonstrated you might sway some votes.--Rosicrucian 14:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is request with a gun to the article's head. A tagged request would let someone do it at a decent pace, and wouldn't use the time of everyone voting on an AfD. This approach requires someone to rush to research and put things together. I have done it before, possibly turning a delete into a keep. I don't have the time at the moment to do it properly. There's a reason the deletion process mentions tagging an article before bringing it into the deletion process. Yes, the article can be recreated if fixed "offline", but it's all a matter of a civil approach to improving articles. *Sparkhead 15:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wasn't the one that proposed the deletion, though I'm endorsing the proposal. The bottom line is that you've claimed this is a matter for cleanup rather than deletion. I'm countering by asking that you show us that, and if you haven't the time to do so perhaps you should approach editors that do.--Rosicrucian 16:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • One, their articles aren't in any danger of being cluttered up with things like Category:Conspiracy Theorists and Category:Anti-Semites if kept. This article is. Two, they're obvious public figures. Tarpley is marginally public at best. Did anyone ask him whether he wanted an article on Wikipedia that may possibly wind up with negative information about him and that he will have to spend the rest of his life watching? KleenupKrew 01:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • All the biog articles get cluttered with crap categories; it's a good argument for CfD, not AfD. And people don't get asked whether they want wikipedia articles about themselves - it's one of the costs of being a public figure, "marginal" or no. I don't particularly like this guy but he seems at least as notable as the hundreds of porn stars that have articles about them... cheers,csloat 06:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everybody brings up the porn stars to try to justify conspiracy cruft. Look, the fact that there's a bunch of porn star articles doesn't justify a non-notable article. You can't just say "well, X has an article, so why is mine being deleted?" If anything, it just means there are a bunch of porn star articles that should probably be deleted.--Rosicrucian 18:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you won't get much argument from me there (and I hope you don't think this is "my" article).--csloat 18:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Tarpley's SYNTHETIC TERROR book is now ranked #1,101 in sales at Amazon following a 5 star review from their top reviewer of political non-fiction works, Robert Steele, who noted that it was "...the strongest of the 770+ books I have reviewed here at Amazon.". Given the volume of sales and readers, and the prominent review gaining further new readers, how does Tarpley fail to meet criteria of notability? The book is also ranked #288 at Amazon.france. I didn't see the discussion removing his SYNTHETIC TERROR volume itself, but wouldn't have a problem seeing comments about that book merged into his bio. Anthony Thorne 07:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The google video of his appearance on CSpan has been viewed 47,000 times. Synthetic Terror has already sold over 10,000 copies; the average run for books in the US is around 3,000. The #288 ranking on Amazon.fr is for books in English, it was as high as 642 in livres en francais until it temporarily sold out. I would also like to see what the SYNTHETIC TERROR Wiki page looked like. Google returns 248,000 hits on "Webster Tarpley". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.121.32.26 (talk • contribs) 08:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC).[reply]
  • While I can admire your efforts to improve the article with your recent flurry of edits, I must remind you that as you haven't cited your sources on the added info you've actually hindered the article in a way.--Rosicrucian 16:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • After Anthony Thorne's comment above, notability and verifiability should no longer be in dispute. How about if we discuss the neutrality of the efforts to delete this page now...? JPLeonard 23:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Re: Neutrality. I'm adducing statistical evidence here that the effort to delete this is not neutral, presumably political bias. I've gone to this category, Category:United States writer stubs. I took the first ten writers there, along with a rough measure of article length.
  1. Ace Atkins 4 lines
  2. Albert Bigelow Paine 2 screens
  3. Alec Foege 5 lines
  4. Alexander Chee 1 screen
  5. Alexander King (author) 7 lines
  6. Alexander Masters 2 lines
  7. Alexander O. Smith 1 screen
  8. Alfred H. Bill 2 screens
  9. Alfred Kazin 1 screen
  10. Alice McDermott 1 screen

Not one of the 10 has been recommended for deletion. None of them appear to be particularly notable. (Tarpley now has 3 screens of content so maybe this is no longer even a stub.)
I conclude bias is shown. You say your deletion motion is neutral? Let's talk about that now. JPLeonard 00:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: JPLeonard (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.[reply]

If you want to, recommend the non-notables for deletion. There are famous conspiracist writers: Milton William Cooper, David Icke, maybe Thierry Meyssan; Tarpley just is not one of them. Tom Harrison Talk 01:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm open to discussion on what needs to be adjusted or rectified with the Tarpley article, and also what was 'wrong' (sorry if I missed a lengthy prior discussion) with the entry on his key book. I'm especially curious as to why the entry on 9/11 SYNTHETIC TERROR couldn't have been framed to include equal sides of the debate on its validity, i.e positive and critical, rather than the complete removal of the subject. I'd also like to reconfirm what actually needs source citing in the current article, with - again - apologies if I'm missing something obvious. Tarpley has been getting more attention and positive reviews lately than Icke, and has greater credibility, unless Wikipedia currently exists to solely republish the official story about current political events. False Flag terrorist activity is documented - see links to Daniele Ganser's European work if I need to bring them in - and Tarpley has been quoted by Steele as the current English-language expert on the topic. Again, I don't see the rationale for complete deletion over a pro/con page discussing both sides. Anthony Thorne 01:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. You say "clearly fails WP:BIO." At WP:BIO it says "People who satisfy at least one of the items below may merit their own Wikipedia articles... Published authors... who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work." Just check Synthetic Terror on Amazon and you will see multiple independent reviews. 44 reviews in all. Most of them raves; average is 5 stars. Google hits a gauge of negatives? The links are due to interest in his work. Anyway the argument is specious; it would mean deleting the bio's of infamous figures. There are currently 5 Google news items on Webster Tarpley. You have to search on "Webster Tarpley," not "Webster G. Tarpley." I repeat. Will one of the deleters please give us a hint what are the claims they want the keepers to verify? It is pretty clear that a lot of people want to shoot the messenger because they don't like the message. Thanks, I don't want to recommend hundreds of non-notable writer stubs for deletion. Let the deleters here go do it. But some people DO want to delete Tarpley, because they notably dislike what he has to say.JPLeonard 02:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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